The 'randomness' of online slot games

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Last post made 8 years ago by drtheolen
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  • This is something of an eternal question and one that is fiercely debated on every gambling forum I currently frequent - except for here at LCB! So I'm fascinated to know what the members here have to say regarding their opinions and beliefs with respect to how online slot games REALLY work.

    To the best of my knowledge, none of the major game producers eg Microgaming, Playtech and Netent, publish any exact details describing the way their online slot games function, how each win is selected, or whether each players results are indeed entirely independent of those of every other player.

    Here in the UK I know for certain that many players believe online slots work in a similar way to the fruit machines we have all played in our earlier years, with wins being dependent on how much the machine has already taken each day, and the wins it has already paid out, despite the fact this is of course supposedly COMPLETELY inaccurate - online slots theoretically provide an entirely random result on every single spin, regardless of everything that has gone before, and no matter how much money each individual player has spent, or how much one specific casino has currently accepted or paid out.

    Do you believe that online slots are truely random? Or do you think that there is some amount of compensating involved? Do you believe you get the same odds on a particular game regardless of which casino you choose to play it at? Do you play at certain times of the day for some particular reason?

    My own experience: I have witnessed incredible streaks of good and bad luck at pretty much every casino I have ever played at. I do believe the machines are entirely random, although my personal preference - whether justified or not - is to play at a popular casino at the weekends when more people are playing, simply because this is when I have had my greatest 'luck'. I believe that most of the major games manufacturers do not permit individual casinos to change the payout percentage offered by their games, as they have publicly stated.

    What do YOU think?

  • It's really obvious that online slots are not "truly random". Why? You can see a message "Win up to XXXXXXX coins" in most NetEnt slots. If they would be "truly random" you can get like infinity free spins - hit 3 scatters and every next spin would give you 3 scatters once again, making you win infinity amount of cash. Playing online slots is something like playing scratch cards, you spin, they calculate your winnings and just show you a set of symbols that matches your winnings.
    And I don't use any "gambling strategy" as something like this doesn't exist. All you can do is to choose low/high variance slots - to meet WR or to win big.

  • There is a huge difference between how many free spins and number of coins are awarded and the outcome of the Random Number Generator (RNG). Of course every game is set by certain guidelines including the max amount of wins, spins etc. It is part of the rules and the way the each game is unique through special features. You can't expect a game to perform outside of what it was technological built to do and award 1,000 free spins when the capacity is 100.

    The casino does have a certain amount of leverage on the RNG and the RTP. Whether the Casino has direct access or has the software adjust the RNG, it definitely is done.

    Interesting this topic was brought up because this week an in depth editorial report will be written about this very thing!

    Lips

  • Looking forward to reading the editorial lipstick - I know for sure that RTG casinos have the capability to alter the tRTP of their video slots, but Microgaming and NetEnt have stated publicly that the tRTP of their games is 'set in stone' at the design stage and cannot be modified by any of the casinos offering that particular game. In the case of RTG, the reel strips are altered to provide the difference in tRTP and if this was being done elsewhere I'm sure somebody would have noticed it by now.

    With regards your point Sommi, the 'win up to xx,xxx coins' refers to the maximum possible win from a single spin - an individual bonus round can easily surpass this, if one of those free spins was the jackpot combination then it is inevitable that the final total will exceed the stated 'maximum win' - most RTG games have a built in cap for this very reason whereby any feature that exceeds the maximum stated win will immediately finish regardless of how many spins you may have remaining - I've heard of people playing Vulcan or other simillarly ultra high variance games that offer many free spins with a huge multiplier being kicked out of the feature with a whole load of spins left to run at a totally sick multiplier.. thats gotta be frustrating!!



  • With regards your point Sommi, the 'win up to xx,xxx coins' refers to the maximum possible win from a single spin - an individual bonus round can easily surpass this, if one of those free spins was the jackpot combination then it is inevitable that the final total will exceed the stated 'maximum win' -


    Have you ever seen winnings  "exceed the stated 'maximum win'"?  I mean, gambler have played billions of spins already and I have never ever seen a single win that was even close to "maximum win" and I'm checking like every place where people share their winnings screenshot.  wink well, jackpot wins don't count to max single win that they announce, I guess.

  • Looking forward to reading the editorial lipstick - I know for sure that RTG casinos have the capability to alter the tRTP of their video slots, but Microgaming and NetEnt have stated publicly that the tRTP of their games is 'set in stone' at the design stage and cannot be modified by any of the casinos offering that particular game. In the case of RTG, the reel strips are altered to provide the difference in tRTP and if this was being done elsewhere I'm sure somebody would have noticed it by now.

    With regards your point Sommi, the 'win up to xx,xxx coins' refers to the maximum possible win from a single spin - an individual bonus round can easily surpass this, if one of those free spins was the jackpot combination then it is inevitable that the final total will exceed the stated 'maximum win' - most RTG games have a built in cap for this very reason whereby any feature that exceeds the maximum stated win will immediately finish regardless of how many spins you may have remaining - I've heard of people playing Vulcan or other simillarly ultra high variance games that offer many free spins with a huge multiplier being kicked out of the feature with a whole load of spins left to run at a totally sick multiplier.. thats gotta be frustrating!!


    I had that happen to me on Rain Dance Slot. I triggered the 100 Free Spins and it re-triggered many times after that. I had over 1,000 Free Spins. Once i reached $2,500 i received a message across the screen saying i had reached the maximum win and all free spins remaining were removed.........sigh.
  • Hi all,
    I can state unequivocally, that the slots we provide are indeed random. Bear in mind, there is a value of random, meaning obviously, you have to consider odds as well (example, you're far more likely to hit say, 3 OAK on any given spin than a full page of wilds).
    Each spin however IS independent of the last. The slot does not take into acct the last spin, win, payout etc, and each new spin is random irrespective of the last.

    Additionally, we have not only no control of the rng, but the rtp as well, as games are set by the provider, not the individual casino. For example, whether you play Microgaming slots with us or a competitor, you've the same odds regardless of which casino you choose to play at. What differentiates one casino from another, is service, promotions, timely payouts, etc. Whether you win or lose at one, one provides no more chance of winning than another, on the face of simply spinning. Basically, we have zero control on the randomness and have no influence on whether you hit large, small, nor unfortunately, as often as we'd all like...that all comes down to whether Lady Luck smiles down on you at any given moment. smiley

  • In saying all this, i remember when i played the slot "lets go fishing" a microgaming slot where the spin hadn't stopped but yet the win on that spin had already been put towards my balance, i did think it was a bit odd and kept watching it for a while, so as i played i saw how my balance changed and in my quick calculations it added up to what the amount would be if i were to get 3 scatters to trigger the freespins and sure enough i got the free spins...so i wouldn't know if you'd call it random or not.


  • In saying all this, i remember when i played the slot "lets go fishing" a microgaming slot where the spin hadn't stopped but yet the win on that spin had already been put towards my balance, i did think it was a bit odd and kept watching it for a while, so as i played i saw how my balance changed and in my quick calculations it added up to what the amount would be if i were to get 3 scatters to trigger the freespins and sure enough i got the free spins...so i wouldn't know if you'd call it random or not.


    A win (or loss) is determined from the point of hitting spin. When you hit spin, a result is drawn from a pool of all possible outcomes and sent from the casino to you. At times, there is a gap as that information is relayed. What you see is one element of the mechanics reacting faster than another, nothing more, nothing less - ie the addition to your balance before the visual representation on your slot screen (the eye-candy as it were).

    This does not make the game any less random. It simply means the total was reflected in your balance before the accompanying visual result.

    readon for edit: 2 word change
  • "Here in the UK I know for certain that many players believe online slots work in a similar way to the fruit machines we have all played in our earlier years"

    People who believe that are wrong.... Here's why....

    A fruit machine is a standalone device. It is there to always make profit, it remember's wins, how much it's paid out and of course the payout % it is supposed to be paying at.

    Fruit machines are compensated machines. Effectively it means you can "turn down" possible wins (By carrying on with the game board until it's game over), then the next game board you get you will be given higher possible amounts to win as the machine tries to get back to the payout % it is set at.

    A 70% payout fruit machine knows 2 things... The payout % of the machine and how much of the payout % it's currently paid out at. If someone has just won the jackpot, there's basically no chance of it paying out again.


    Online gambing (Or any form of gambling that uses an RNG) is totally different and while I don't know the in's and out's... I do believe a few things.

    These are nothing like pub fruit machines as players can't "turn down" wins or try to force the jackpot... The RNG decides....

    Slot's are designed to profit the casino of course but also give the player a chance at some nice wins. Thorough checks are done when a new online slot is made to check this can happen by running the slot through millions, if not billions of spins and noting the average payout % after all spins.

    If the average payout was say 94%... That effectively means for every £1000 of spins made by all players, the casino have £60 profit. Although as it uses an RNG, sometimes it can be slightly more, other times slightly less.

    For us players and how the RNG works, I see it as 1 big pot. Imagine a pot was created with 100 bits of paper placed in them. 60 had "lose" written on them. 30 had "small win". 9 had "big win" and the last bit of paper had "jackpot". When someone picks a piece of paper from the pot they will more than likely pick "lose" but also have a chance to be lucky and possibly pick "jackpot".

    Of course an RNG wouldn't just have 100 "bits of paper" to pick from..... it generates millions of results per second.

    1 thing most players realise is free spins or a bonus round where you pick an item are not "random" when you get to that feature..... The result is already decided and effectively you just see a video playing which shows the outcome. People may kick themselves thinking they wished they had picked the other coin/box/symbol, but actually it doesn't matter what 1 they picked... The result would always be the same.

    "100% random" is a term that implies anything can happen. Flipping a coin and doing heads or tails is what I would call random.

    The fact that slots use an RNG is a good thing really.....

    The RNG carries a finite list of results. Slot testing then confirms the way it is programmed allows the casino to make money but also allows the player to have a fair bit of entertainment with a good chance of winning.

    If there was no RNG then the results would have infinite possibilities. This is bad for both the casino and the player.... There could be times when the slots randomness pays excessive amounts (Meaning it could even reach an average payout of 1000%... Too much for a casino to be hit with). Or it could have times where it seriously screw's ALL of the players and reduce the overall average payout % to under 5%.

    The fact that the RNG keeps the average payout % at between 92% and 97% so consistently means the casino can make money and the player always has a chance to win.

  • Very informative information guys its very useful and helpful.

  • This is the first time that I have played free spins at a casino and wasn't able to turn that money around and play other games with it without depositing.

  • Marcus, what do you think of Rival slots randomness?
    Have you ever read somewhere if they are certified as truely random?
    Maybe are simple impressions but if i spin without autoplay and without the "fast spin" option i see better results.
    I'm testing the same slot in different Rival casinos to see what happen and i think that in some way it is possible to study a good strategy to win in the middle-long term (without bonus too).
    Some slots have really special free spins and bonus features that come quite regularly with big payout, surely enough to complete a lot of bonus even if i prefer to play without them.
    I cannot see the same opportunities with netent and rtg (mg i cannot say anything because the most of casinos are banned to italian players).
    I have seen some netent Dead Or Alive statistics (millions of spins) and it's not possible to do anything to beat them regularly in the middle-long term.

  • Udacia:

    Thats because you have been lucky with the "fast spin" option so have thought that you are seeing better results. Your luck could easily change. There are no strategy's at all... Spin fast, slow, turbo spin, auto spin.... The RNG picks a result the second spin is hit. Any winning streaks from a certain method is purely an illusion, no method works better than others.

    Rival casino's were once legit... Now though, the majority have gone down the pan and are rogue. Unless the software itself is rogue, it will work exactly the same way as slot's on other platforms with the RNG.

    The free spin type is irrelevant as the spins are purely eye candy... stacked wilds, no stacked wilds, 3x wins, expanding wilds, sticky wilds.... Doesn't matter.... The result of how much you win is decided before the free spins start.

    I havent played rival for years so I havent seen if they say they are "truly random", however anything RNG based will have some randomness to it.

    "Truly random" is never meant in the way that anything can happen. It's meant that the RNG results are truly random.

    Somehow the RNG manages to work with the slot to keep the payout % at a fair amount.

  • On top of all that has been said here, and I have to agree with almost all of it, there is one more thing that should be mentioned when it comes to term "randomness".

    There are basically 2 types of RNG, pseudo RNG which is a computer generated RNG and true RNG. Pseudo RNG would be the RNG we are talking about here, it uses a certain mathematical algorithms to create sequences of numbers that look like they are randomly generated. True RNG uses some physical phenomenon such as radioactivity or atmospheric noises to generate randomness.

    There are a lot of claims by many gamblers online how they figured out certain patterns in the RNG and how they can utilize it to their advantage, but such a thing is highly unlikely. While pseudo RNG certainly is periodic (which means that sequences of numbers will eventually repeat themselves at some point), it would require tens of thousands of spins (or even much much more like millions of spins) on a same slot for example for a RNG to seem periodic. So its safe to say that level of randomness offered by online casinos is more than enough for the purpose it needs to fulfill.

  • anyone who thinks that online slots are not random should immediately quit gambling.

  • Thats a tad harsh I think, but I would say anybody who believes online slots are UNFAIR should immediately quit gambling... and I guess, as the games are advertised as random, it would be unfair if they are not entirely random. So in principal I guess what you say is true, but I just know that a lot of people have their own superstitions and beliefs on this subject and it usually produces some interesting responses.. thanks everybody for your input so far, glad to see we don't have many tin foil hatters here at LCB exclamation smiley

  • Here is the editorial just published:

    Truth and Myths About the Random Number Generator

    Would be nice to read players comments!

  • The authors comments are exactly what I would expect to hear.  But how much does anyone really know about internal operations of a casino?  The comment stating the fact that it is impossible to link players accounts to a losing RNG algorithm, can't be true.  It is possible to link IP addresses to anything you want.  The casino keeps a good record of IP addresses you use to connect to their server.  I also noticed recently, in my task manager, there will be 3 casino.exe processes running with only 1 casino software program open.  This is a new.  Previously, it used to be only 1 casino.exe process to 1 casino software program running.  Not sure the reason why, but raised a question to me.

  • We might be able to peek at your gameplay but we can't influence it, any more than if we looked over your shoulder and could change the outcome. We provide the means for you to access the software but don't control the play itself.  The reality is, even if we COULD (and we can't) , we simply wouldn't have the time nor motivation to do so.

    Thanks for the read lipstick.

  • Drunab, it depends on which game makers software you are using as to why they are multiple processes in your task manager, but its highly unlikely anything is amiss - in the case of the microgaming software, they use two seperate progreams, casinohost and casinogame, one of them runs the game on the local machine and the other does the interacting with the RNG server, its invisible to most players unless you go looking for it, and doesnt mean anything bad is happening.

  • Question 1). Who physically manages the game server?

    Question 2). Does each casino have their own server?

    Question 3). @drtheolen = how is it that you have expert knowledge on the RNG subject?  Is it a hobby of yours? Do you work in the industry?

  • The information drtheolen posted regarding real and pseudo random number generators is quite commonly discussed on gambling forums such as this one, as the question of 'how random can a computer really be?' often comes up. I'm actually a software developer myself and can say with great confidence that it is impossible to predict the outcome of even a pseudo-RnG - it may not be truly random, but there isn't a human on earth who could find a pattern in the output.

    Theres a related topic to this one I was writing about on another thread earlier, probably deserves a thread of its own - search for 'provably fair' onlinee, its so far only really being embraced by bitcoin casinos, but I hope its going to spread.

  • I specifically stated that be it a pseudo or true RNG, there is no way for any human to predict the outcome. Im no expert on the matter of RNG, just used to read about it a lot back in the days I started gambling. You can check out various sites offering RNG services for various purposes or simply wikipedia, I believe you can find quite thorough information on the RNG subject if you want to know more.

    So, my intention was not to say how "pseudo RNG" is not random to the point of predictability by a human, or even a whole team of people, that is just impossible and on that we absolutely agree wscalley.

  • Ah sorry drtheolen, I made it all confused by putting it in the same paragraph, but I was really just replying to the guy above who questioned how you know so much about RNGs. Other than that I just wanted to point out that though there is a difference between real and pseudo RNGs, its not one of any technical importance for us as casino game players.

  • I guess the first 2 questions are difficult to answer.  Or being ignored for a reason.  Or they don't matter! Lol thanks for the replies anyway guys.


  • anyone who thinks that online slots are not random should immediately quit gambling.


    Could not agree more .  If I was to believe RNG is rigged or not random then it would be really foolish of me to keep on gambling.
  • I guess the first 2 questions are difficult to answer.  Or being ignored for a reason.  Or they don't matter! Lol thanks for the replies anyway guys.


    drunab, as the guy behind free games here on LCB, I can give you an answer regarding free play - I believe majority of the games are hosted on manufacturers domains and some are hosted on casino's domain (at least that is the impression I've got).

    For example, all quickfire games are hosted on quickfire servers (that includes Microgaming, Genesis Gaming, Rabcat, Bluberry, Push Gaming etc...).

    I cannot however tell you who manages servers since I really do not have that information.

    I can also say that when it comes to free games at LCB, we are unable to alter anything in game itself (other than switching language or currency where such option is supported). I don't think casinos can do mutch more than that either. As BETAT rep said, its probably possible to peek at or monitor someone's gameplay by the casino (which is quite ok, they do it to you at land based casinos too), but from what I saw I really don't think casinos can influence your gameplay other than tweaking RTP for ALL PLAYERS and only in those softwares in which manufacturers allow such thing.
  • Absolutely agree with the rep and Drtheolen post. I think we are missing the real issue here. When a gambler loses or has a bad unlucky streak it raises the suspicion in the player that it must be the casino, the software, the RNG and every other reason in between. The blame is immediately placed everywhere and anywhere else but the fact of
    the matter is we lost plain and simple.

    This is when false accusations are made by disgruntled players that aren't winning and label a casino "rogue". A casino isn't rogue because a player made 10 deposits and didn't win, they are rogue for not paying players in a timely matter or not at all.

    The reality is gambling is a game of chance and it is all about risk and we all know we're going to lose more often then we are going to win.  Yes the RNG can be adjusted but to think that each player's account can be adjusted to a different RNG would take a tremendous amount of work considering the thousands upon thousands of customers that pass through their doors. Then after a long spell of losing you suddenly win so does that mean the Casino had mercy on you, flipped a switch on the back-end and allowed you to win today.......makes no sense.

    If a casino seems tight, its tight for everyone not a selected group that is targeted to lose. I think the best understanding we can give ourselves for losing or winning is based on what it truly is LUCK!

    Think about the number of gamblers per day that are playing at a casino with a good reputation. Out of the say 5,000 players that play within a 24 hour period, how many winners do you think there are compared to losers? Definitely the majority falls in the losers corner so does this make this casino rogue? Of course not because the casino house always has the edge, if they didn't every casino would go out of business.




  • Question 1). Who physically manages the game server?

    Question 2). Does each casino have their own server?



    I see you are from the US which means you most likely have access to land based casinos. Are you as curious about the land based casino as you are about online casinos and how they are run and operated? Just would be interesting to get some feedback on trusting online operation vs land based.

    Question 1). Who physically manages the game server?

    From what i understand through my ongoing research of all iGaming software,  the casino operator manages the game server for the most part. The software provides all the back-end tools necessary for a casino to run the game server. If there are any issues for the operator as in glitches the software is available to offer assistance and correct the problem.   

    Question 2). Does each casino have their own server?

    Casino operators can request having their own server from the software. When starting up a new casino some software provides a full service which means they assist in the management all casino activity for a fee. If a casino operator prefers more complete access over their casino including privacy to data then choosing a software that doesn't charge a fee for management of activity is chosen.



  • There is no randomness. Somebody had to program the software. They know exactly how much will be paid out because thats what they programmed it to pay out.  Thats why they can give 100% 200% 300% bonuses.

  • The bonuses are created with a wagering requirement that is directly associated with the calculated RTP of the game by the people in the casino promotions team. So, they give you a 30x requirement, and each 1x you are expected to lose 3.3percent of your bankroll for example, therefore across the 30x you will lose all your money if the game pays out exactly as expected... which of course never happens, some people do better, others do worse, also some casinos may be more (or less) generous when calculating the required wagering, but this is the math behind it and the reason why roulette and blackjack have a lower "weighting", because their house edge is lower than the slots, so it would require more play on those games for the casino to EXPECT to come out flat.

    To suggest there is no randomness to the games is just silly, if it was in any way predictable the casinos would be bust, and we would all be rich smiley

  • By the way, I was playing at Kajot casino few minutes ago, hit 3 scatters and got disconnected.



    I should choose one of scatters to draw number of free spins. But when I logged in again I saw +€20 in my account, I entered Lucky Pearl again and my free spins were already over, couldn't even play them  laugh_out_loud Slots are so "random" tongue No idea why they add features like "choose a scatter" if it doesn't matter at all....

    Rated:

    5/ 5

  • There was a number of discussions here regarding slot features and how the winnings from those are predetermined in the moment of triggering them. Knowing that result of your bonus round has already been calculated and determined surely sucks, but it doesn't change the fact that your €20+ was a random number, and if you were able to play that bonus round you still wouldn't really know what you gonna get until the end smiley

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