Highly Controversial Topic... Relgion....

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Last post made 13 years ago by wmmeden
gabby
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    My family (parents/siblings) are faithful.  My husbands family is very religious. My kids go to religion classes and daughter went all the way through confirmation. (Yes, Catholic). 

    I'm really on the fence about things and am not asking for direction.  Just opinions. 

    Some people (okay, many) treat the bible like a smorgasboard, where you can pick and choose what you want to follow/believe.  I would think the Bible is a 'take it all' or 'leave it all' book.

    There are many who feel hoIf a man sins, his children are to be put to death
    Isaiah 14:21 - Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

    If your child disobeys, he must be stoned to death
    Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

    A child who curses his mother or father must be put to death
    Exodus 21:17 - And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death

    Anyone who doesn't listen to a priest is to be put to death
    Deuteronomy 17:12 - Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

    If your brother, son, daughter, wife or friend encourages you to worship a different god, you must kill them mosexuality is wrong because the Bilbe says so. Drives me nuts!  Why?  I'm sure not one of those folks live by the following parts of the Bible.

    If a man rapes a married woman, both of them are to be killed.
    Deuteronomy 22:22 - If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.


    Women who have sex before marriage are to be burned to death
    Leviticus 21:9 - A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.



    So... if anyone has any logical replies for me, I would appreciate it.  I am sitting on the fence, per se, and just go...hmmmmmmm

  • Laws of the Old Testament, for Christians, became obsolete with the coming of Christ.  That's what makes it "the Good News".  Okay, that's pretty simplistic.

    Think of God as a parent, and humans as a species as babies growing into adults.  As a parent teaching young children, you have to be strick and "mean" for their own good, so they won't get hurt by things they don't understand like Fire Is HOT.  Early humans got heavier discipline and rules.  As your children grew, you had to keep them from running out into the street or eating poison, so you punished or yelled in order to make them aware of the dangers, and not want to get near them.  So God also had strict rules and harsh punishment.  It was for the good of the humans.

    When Christ came, and died for our sins, he took all that burden of punishment on himself.  He asked for little in return except to believe that he did that.

    As humans matured and developed and changed, so did the rules.  We wouldn't really put up with stoning and burning and killing, or having to make animal sacrifices, or other Old Testament practices.  Christians follow the rules of Christ, with knowledge of the rules of the Old Testaments, and make choices in their behavior based on their beliefs and abilities to make good or bad choices. 

    Well, that's really brief, but I hope it is clear enough to see what I mean.  Sitting on the fence is fine and I hope that this provides a new train of thought to explore.

  • I consider myself a practicing Christian, but I don't understand the Bible like the Fundamentists do....like the Southern Baptists or conservative independent churches.

    I think the Bible is a sacred book which tells us A LOT about God, ourselves and our human condition.  Gabby, what you describe is called "proof-texting."  This is where (usually an unlearned Christian with an agenda) simply abstracts bits and pieces out of the Bible to prove a particular point. 

    There are lots of things to consider when reading the Bible....such as context, history, backgrounds, types of Biblical liturature, etc.


  • Mods:  If you feel this will generate too much controversy, feel free to delete.



    Gabby, i absolutely love the topic and i for one love good old fashion debates! It is my aphrodisiac. You could not have chosen a more controversial topic unless it was politics. I just want to warn everyone that we must respect everyones views and not belittle along the way. And realize it is ok to agree to disagree!

    Now down to the topic at hand........whoa!

    First of all the bible has been written and rewritten throughout history for the purpose of translation as well as the ever changing evolution of mankind. And in many ways that is shame.

    I picture a group of men sitting at a round table saying "take this out, take that out" to behoove their needs. And what are those needs? The almighty dollar and control.

    For example the original scriptures state that God said we can worship Him anywhere. If that is the case then why is it almost mandatory in today's society to go to church to do it? Again............MONEY!

    We are a self driven society of money and power throughout history.

    The God you describe in your post Gabby, is not a loving God. This is a fearing God. I don't view God as someone to fear or to stone to death humans for their wrong doings or things that make absolutely no sense. Kill a woman who has been raped? This is man's interpretation.

    I do believe in a higher power. I do not label myself any religion. To me that put's too many God fearing restraints on what my heart and soul tell me. Then i end up asking myself the very questions you are asking now.

    Lips

  • I do believe in a higher power. I do not label myself any religion. To me that put's too many God fearing restraints on what my heart and soul tell me. Then i end up asking myself the very questions you are asking now.


    Thanks, I could not say it any better.
  • People expect one another to tell them the truth.  When a lie is uncovered, there is fallout and a disruption to business/household/organization.  Every time you tell the truth, metaphorically speaking you're drawing closer to God and as the Bible scripture goes "...He draws closer to you."  Every lie, deception, or broken promise, the opposite goes and more disruptions/calamity occur.  

    and if you get into a constantly habit of telling the truth, I believe at one point God would want a relationship, provided you continue to tell the truth.

  • Hi Lipps.....I liked your comments, but I have to disagree that the translation of the Bible was all about money.  (And yes, yes, yes....plenty of people use the Bible, religion, including Christianity, to make a buck.)  And plenty of churches are VERY anti-money and really into serving people.  Sadly, though, there are plenty of exceptions.  Sounds like you know a few!

  • And of course, there are those of us who believe the bible is a book of parables written by a man for a time when society, feeling its decadence, required a set of morals with an instilled fear factor placed into it, should you not comply

  • Wow guys! 

    Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post and you have all given me a lot to think about.

    I love hearing others perspectives on different issues and each post was eloquent and well put.

    Thanks too, for not bashing me smiley  and being diplomatic in your replies.

  • Are we all aware, that 25-30 years ago, Catholasisam, ( the Catholic church) was the #1 money makeing non-profit group, in our U.S. of A.

  • uh, no, not all of us were aware.  My dad used to want me to read something called "The other side of Rome".  I never did, but I did make my own conclusions about the Catholic Church.  Being that it wasn't for me. 

    I am glad gabby came back to post I thought maybe this thread was put up like throwing a grenade and running away!

  • I realize that organized religion gets a bad rap.....often fully deserving!  But, the numbers of hospitals, colleges and relief efforts begun by "church folks" is considerable.

    Ask people still suffering from Huricanne Katrina what they think of FEMA, and most will be quite negative in their response.  But, ask them what they think of Baptists, Methodists and Catholics and they will express gratitude for these church goers' love and caring.

    So, to paint all people of faith negatively with a broad brush isn't quite accurate or fair.

  • Well Gabby, I agree with Chilly as to the laws were voided when Christ came. But the part you posted didn't include certian things. I have posted the entire passage of the law regarding rape below.


    Deuteronomy 22:23 "If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her,
    Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you.
    Deuteronomy 22:25 "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.
    Deuteronomy 22:26 But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor;
    Deuteronomy 22:27 because he came upon her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
    Deuteronomy 22:26 But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor;
    Deuteronomy 22:27 because he came upon her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
    Deuteronomy 22:28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
    Deuteronomy 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

  • BTW folks, that last part of marrying the rapist I don't personally agree with. The female was traumatized enough and then she has to marry the scum? I don't agree with that part at all....Thankfully those laws are history.

  • Re: the Catholic Church.  Their charities have helped me out several times, and I have a great respect for what they do for the community.  Here in Castroville they host the biggest festival each year that generates a lot of money and a lot of good clean fun! 

    I'm not quite understanding who painted all people of faith negatively with a broad brush.  Maybe I missed something.

  • geneco....correct.  Such laws were nulled at the First Jerusalem Council. 

  • Chilly. I wasn't attempting to paint an awfull picture of you, or anyone else involved with the church. I certainly believe in a higher power............I hope 1 is there, lol.
    I had an aunt, who was so wrapped up in the catholic church, you know God bless this, an god bless that, it was truely too much! I have 4 cousins with her marrage to my uncle. After the youngest cousin was born, that was it, for all the kids they we're going to have. In proper Catholic style, she crossed her legs for good, and in doing so, ruined the marrage.
    I'm sure your aware of the Catholic way of doing things, when it comes to having kids, after the child bairing years are over, no more sex.
    Anyway my higher power, definately doesn't think that way. That religion, has encouraged the males in our society to go out, and truely think and act out as the MIND DOC does.
    Doc don't take offense, this is a forum, we're here to express our concerns, and voice our opinions. As I stated earlier, nothing I believe in, nor hundreds of thousands of hypocrites who say their catholics, but then do exactly opposite from their churches way of thinking, believe in that no sex issue too, I know you don't.
                                                  Rico

  • Oh, it wasn't you, genenco, Doc's the one said something about the paintbrush.  I just didn't understand which comment touched off that comment.  I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church.  That's where I got my 'training'.  It was a big sin to dance.  There was a lot of sexual abuse in the congregational families, and a lot of unwed mothers, and some pedophilia, but I'm sure that stuff goes on everywhere.  I happened to graduate from a Baptist University, which wasn't planned, just turned out that way.  My sister, when a teenager, turned to the Church of Christ.  Then, something called "The Church" and did a lot of "Oh, Lord Jesus" and the Spanish members would call out to Senor Jesus.  Then she fell in lust with one of her college professors and turned to Catholicism.  I haven't been to any organized church in decades, so I doubt the Southern Baptists are still claiming me.  I simply have taken what I was taught, what I have seen and what I have learned and try to be a fairly good Christian.  What other people may think of my spirituality is of no matter to me, nor is what I think of theirs.  In any case, I hate arguing about anything, especially something as subjective and personal as religion.  I feel there's not one of us here who "knows" the "truth".  We can only follow our hearts, wherever our minds lead them.

  • I was born & raised Catholic, but once I got out of college I rarely attended church services.  I have so many questions 4 'The Big Guy' when I get up there!  Though I don't attend church, I have a very deep belief in God & I am utterly convinced He has a plan 4 each & every 1 of us.  My husband is Jewish; he often teases me that I'm more Jewish than he is! I've ALWAYS been fascinated with the Jewish faith & their traditions, and will read anything I can get my hands on in order 2 learn as much as I can.  My husband has NEVER asked me 2 convert, & he respects MY beliefs as well.  Nonetheless, we've managed 2 blend both of our faiths in a way that pays respect 2 each.
    As 4 God.....put it this way.  My husband was diagnosed w/ renal cancer 3 yrs. ago; he had 2 have his kidney removed.  This happened a mere 2 yrs. into our relationship....he survived & the cancer was gone.  THEN, last month he was hospitalized w/ pneumonia & doctors found a mass in his lung.  We just went 4 follow up tests yesterday, & the lung specialist said the 'mass' has disappeared!  It was directly related 2 the pneumonia....NO CANCER!....
    If those 2 experiences weren't enough 2 show me that there is a God, I don't know what would.

  • No Chilly I said nothing about a large paintbrush, just that I agreed with you about when Christ came, that the laws were rendered void.

    Speaking of Church, I was (Believe it or not) raised in a Mormon Church. I even made it to Deacon also. But after the BS infighting and stuff they (The church hirearchy) did, I drew away.

    The funny thing was, until I got with a church in Missouri, I rarely ever opened the bible. While there I did start to get my eyes opened to just how many people saw the same words and yet took them differently!

    Sure, that church also had some problems, but most any church will. It's really the parishiners who make or break a church.

  • thanks, gene.  Again, I know it wasn't you about the paintbrush.  Maybe the Mind Doc will grace us with an explanation as to why he wrote that. 

    I was interested in the Mormon church when I was a teenager and my Dad threw a hissy fit! 

    No wonder I never got to go to a prom.  You know why Baptists don't make love standing up?  someone might see them and think they were dancing!

  • "Broad paintbrush"  People sometimes say things like:  "I was raised Catholic (Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) and I had a bad experience.  So, therefore the Catholic Church is full of corrupt, boring, hypocrits, money-hungry, etc,, people.  And that is why I don't like Catholics or attend church anymore."

    That truly may be some people's experience, but not everyone's.  This may come as a shock to a lot of former, or non practicing Catholics, but there are hundreds of millions of Catholics who enjoy their parishes, find strength, and engage in service to relieve suffering.

    This approach to organized religion, painting with a broad brush just because I personally had a bad experience, employs a logic we don't use any other place besides this topic.

    Consider!

    1.  My family and a few friends had a bad experience at the grocery store; therefore, all grocery stores are corrupt and money hungery so I'm not grocery shopping anymore.

    2.  My family and friends saw a bad movie the other night, so clearly the motion picture industry is corrupt because they make bad movies and serve as an avenue to make creepy people like Charlie Sheen and Lindsey Lohan rich.  No more movies for us!

    So, yes, there are TONS of bad-religion stories out there.  But most stories of religion are not bad.

  • Well, this is nice! With the exception of Gabby, ( and shes not that far off), we're all pretty much on the same page here, regarding this issue. I'm sure the heavy duty Catholics, would consider us sinners, and hethens, for discussing this issue, in a gambleing forum. Me, I'm sure not gonna loose any sleep over that!
                                      Rico


  • "Broad paintbrush"  People sometimes say things like:  "I was raised Catholic (Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) and I had a bad experience.  So, therefore the Catholic Church is full of corrupt, boring, hypocrits, money-hungry, etc,, people.  And that is why I don't like Catholics or attend church anymore."

    That truly may be some people's experience, but not everyone's.  This may come as a shock to a lot of former, or non practicing Catholics, but there are hundreds of millions of Catholics who enjoy their parishes, find strength, and engage in service to relieve suffering.



    That's why I didn't go further in giving the axe to the Mormon church. I know many who are quite happy. I simply didn't like what I saw and left. No real hard feelings, I just feel they weren't right for me.
  • "people sometimes say".  I'm sure people sometimes say a lot of things.  Did anyone say that here?  I didn't see anyone doing any condemning here.  Again, maybe I missed something in this topic. 

    "This approach to organized religion, painting with a broad brush just because I personally had a bad experience, employs a logic we don't use any other place besides this topic."

    I think it's more a logic that has been used most anywhere except in this topic, and that all other posters have been quite friendly in this discussion.





  • Before he died, Jesus gave us 2 fundamental rules, to love God above all things and to love one another as HE loves us.  If all of us had adhered to this, then all the atrocities from the last 2 millennium would never had taken place.  Faith is a remarkable thing, but I think religion is dangerous.  Only you can answer for what you chose to either do or not do in this world.  We are made to love and be loved.  God didn't give us war or disease or terrible things. What he gave us all was freewill.  What we do with it is up to us.

  • wmmeden, your comments about God and your avatar don't go together.  Either the Devil is under your feet or you're under his.

  • My avatar is to make fun, it has nothing to do with religion. Don't read too much into stuff.

  • Ah Jesus was a hippie pot smoker with some cool ideas; he probably existed. Don't know about being the son of god. the wold has seen its share of 'messiahs' and every faith has its own god and son

  • I was raised Catholic but when i grew up it didnt quite sit well with me.  So years and years later i was needing something and i didnt know what.  Ended up trying out a community church with some of my young girlfriends and finding what i had been needing in my life..........God.  Simple, i just needed to have God in the forefront of my life rather than on a back burner.  I have always believed in God, always, just didnt care for how the church was teaching me.

    I no longer go for the rituals of a church but for how i feel when i am there.  I wont go to a church that scares me and makes me feel bad.  I dont want to leave church feeling worse and being scared that things i do will put me in hell. 

    I believe in an all loving God not an all fearing God.  I dont believe thats what his plan is for us.  I just believe He wants us all to love one another (to the best of our ability lol) and do the best that we can in this life.

    I have a few friends who are gay, and i cannot abide any church where they dont particularly care to have gays there becuz they think it is a sin.  I believe God loves all of us, not just a chosen few.  I dont think anyone should be shunned for trying to just love God.

    Ack i was just coming to say a few words lol

    Anyhoo I am a firm believer of a loving God and believe we will all meet again one day in a most wonderous place.  See ya there!


  • BTW folks, that last part of marrying the rapist I don't personally agree with. The female was traumatized enough and then she has to marry the scum? I don't agree with that part at all....Thankfully those laws are history.


    That is the part that I was starting to come to terms with (per others responses) but now  I'm scratching my head again.
    So.... part of the Bible is now 'history'.  Who gets to decide THAT?!?  If some laws/ways/ are history, why are so many so hell bent on standing behind the Bibles views on homosexuality?

    I'm married and heterosexual, BTW, this topic just baffles me.

  • Well, this is nice! With the exception of Gabby, ( and shes not that far off), we're all pretty much on the same page here, regarding this issue. I'm sure the heavy duty Catholics, would consider us sinners, and hethens, for discussing this issue, in a gambleing forum. Me, I'm sure not gonna loose any sleep over that!
                                      Rico




    Hmmm. How do I read your first sentence.  Well, this is nice, with the exception of Gabby. smiley

    Speaking of money as some have.  While my parents lived in Utah, I was shown the Temple and the statue of Brigham Young.  Brigham Young is facing the temple but his hand is outstretched to the bank.  Coincidence?  I dunno.
    ** In no way want to offend Mormons.  Just an observation**

    I was raised early as a Catholic.  Attended a catholic school during some elementary years and then Hawaii Baptist Academy.  Had myself a full range. smiley
  • Gabby, I think the Bible itself, the part that is called "The New Testament" explains why the old laws are "history".  Each denomination, however, has different interpretations of scripture, and each local church, depending upon local custom and culture, has even further interpretations.  Then each individual will have their own interpretations within themselves.  Some churches teach of the loving God, some teach of the loving God that will strike us dead if we dance or masturbate or engage in homosexual activity.  Some teach only that you had better follow all the rules or be damned.  For eternity.  That's a long time!

    Since we are probably all gamblers here (can I hear an "amen" to that?), you could look at believing in God and/or following Christ by playing the odds.  My Dad put it sort of this way:  The best that could happen is it's real and you lived a "good" life and you end up in heaven.  Or, you could break even and have lived a "good" life if you do believe and it was all real, but, no heaven.  Or, you could live a "bad" life and it wasn't all real, still no heaven.  But if you live a "bad" life and it was all real, oops...hell for you!  surprise

    I think I said before there is not one person who "really" knows the answers for fact.  Follow your heart.

  • Right, Chilly. The old testament and laws were no longer needed after Jesus.  His sacrifice made a new convenant with God.  The old rules no longer applied.

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