I would be very curious to this Board's thoughts regarding this topic.
When I was practicing counseling I was always amazed at how very smart, decent well-intended women (it was mostly woment but plenty of men, too) married, cohabitated, with such losers. Loser being defined as one who chronically lies, cheats, physical abuse can't/won't keep a job, lazy, etc. Now, it's not that these losers never gave off pre-marriage signals. Almost 100% of the time the soon-to-be spouse saw "signs" of concern.
I pretty much have, generally, chauked this off to love being very blind, and a woman's motherly type instincts to fix things, including people. "Yeah, I know he drinks too much but once we are living together I can get him to back off...after all we love each other, right?"
Admittedly, I am sure this type dynamic is more complex than I just laid it out. So, I would enjoy your thoughts, theories, and ideas on this topic.
Why do some marry (co-hab) with such losers? Your theories?
Readers of this topic also read:
- I gotta say that there were no signs whatsoever. You may have read my post in the other thread about my abusive marriage.
He was the perfect gentleman, tall, dark and very handsome. Held a very respectable job, dressed well etc etc. What can I say. It was a shock.
When the signs are there though, I would probably run a mile.
I'd be interested to hear the comments too.
- With me,I always tried to fix anything that was broken.You name it,animals,household stuff,men..etc,etc.I'm still that way but not with men.LOL!!Maybe you have a point there with the mothering aspect doc.I think with some men tho and women too they have self esteem issues and want you to feel useless and unlovable too.I'd rather build people up than tear them down.If I had any idea was ex or any man was abusive I would have told my feet...don't fail me now and got the h**l out of there.
- Well I see that I did indeed possibly marry one of those guys you described. 'He will be different with me' is one I thought. 'I'm special, we're in love' is another. 'We have children, he's my husband, we're a family' all things I've thought and said to keep me sitting in this house. I think he is actually a sociopath now.. and I'm trying to figure out how the hell to get out. I actually wanted him to leave, and then he made me feel really guilty. Right now, he is in the 'I'm being so good to L, look at me I picked up my shirt off the ground and hung it up, did you see me' phase. But we all know when that settles, how it will be. I'm trying to figure out ...figure it all out I guess. Feeling like a real moron though:(
- OK, here we go, Makeing sure my Einstien cap is bolted on good. First we as humans, as much as we want to believe we are perfect, great, etc., we are not! Perfection is out of the picture. Unfortunately, not all of us are aware of this.
We are all molded, ( put together, at the time we come out of the female body) by our surroundings. Father, mother, aunt, etc. and this gets us up and going. Years go by, we school, read books, have teachers, and by the time we're 18 or so, we're suppose to have been givein the proper tools, to start a life, that goes in the proper direction. I'm sure, anyone reading this realizes, if this scenerio happens, (let's say 95% of the time) and why shouldn't it, why are people, why as a race of people are we having so many problems?
Hey Doc, there just isn't enough room here @ LCB, to write about this! I'm pretty sure your aware of how far this thread can be picked apart. I'm going to be as brief as possible, on the mate chooseing, or picking, and let anyone who reads it, then do their homework. A few reminders, before I get started. NORMAL is a word that is not used. If one can think of life, as a daily learning experience, ( and one doesn't have to learn alot, just a little) and not believe they've maxed out on knowing everything there is to know, we'll continue.
As humans, in our early years, an our adolecent years we pick up, and retain certain things that we've gone through, or witnessed that in some way affected our life, be it positive or negative. This will stay with us, throughout our life, mostly in our sub-concious. I gotta say this before going any further, when I say us, I mean that 95% that I mentioned earlier, and that figure is certainly debateable. If someone reading this feels their outside that figure, DON'T!!!
MMM, I have to stop here, I must apologise. Some people could be offended, and I'm not going to do that. I'll check this thread in the coming days, and continue if it warents.
Look what you've started Doc, lol
- Hmm.... I'm not even sure what you're sayin Rico. That we are all not perfect is a given, I don't think we claim to be. But there are some very unhealthy people out there, and when coupled with vulnerable people like myself- no real family, fighting cancer with two little kids, in a place I wouldn't call my home- these things would make a normal- and yes I said normal- person want to HELP their loved one, especially their wife or mate, rise up and feel secure. Not crush them, and put them lower, and make them feel horrible about their very existence. It's a power thing for some people, not everyone, not many actually, but for some very special people, power is what drives them. i don't even think they or he knew he had it in him, i don't even think he likes it... but it came out. It's like a shark smelling water... he almost couldn't help but take advantage of the situation to do whatever it is he wanted to do and probably wouldn't have gotten away with. so this post, the original, i don't think is about 'normal' people and 'regular' losers. We are all different, and noone is perfect. but i think two imperfect people can work on a relationship if the common goal to heal and help and love is honored. Not to shove the person so far out of reality that they feel like they are in some twilight zone when they wake up. And regular losers, those like doc described... well we all get caught up in that. People are people.. i would take on 10 of those guys after dealing with this one.
- It's not only women that marry losers, but also some men do it too, i've seen some really good men married to the lousiest of women.. i ask myself, why and how does this happen? Men that work, clean, cook, pay all the bills while the wife does nothing but complain, be a pain and spend his money.. women can be abusive mentally and physically, cheat, lie and be lazy.. words can hurt more and are longer lasting then the fist..
i've had one or two losers in my life.. the problem i had was not being independent enough to get away and raise my child, i was NOT given the option, was watched and controlled constantly..when women are in these situations they won't tell anyone or ask for help (its out of fear OR lost confidence or thinking no one would care which is something the abuser puts into the minds of the abused) as soon as i got that moment where i was safe and secure.. i was long gone and NEVER went back (and he knew i would).
The signs of a loser are there somewhere in every case.. we are blind to see it at first.. unfortunetly for some they get caught in that trap and absolutely lose their mind...
- Imagine, take my word for it, NORMAL is a terrible word. ex., what is "normal" for you, will not be "normal" for me, yet each one of us, (you an me, in this case) is going through our life, with some type of decency and success. Thats the main point, as we go through our lives, hopefully we've learned the proper tools, then use these tools, in our daily affairs to enjoy, succeed, make the right decissions, that pertain to that 1 individual. A good example, I enjoy a steak, fries, and a beer, while Joe Schmoe enjoys Dried out beef livers, curry, and a shot of cod liver oil. Who am I to say, Joe Schmoe is a sicko, he's a very productive person in our society, has a family, etc.
You can see, ( I hope) how you can throw the word "normal" right out of the dictionary. I have, anyway.
Maybe I'll write some more later,
- Great question doc...oh how i love a good debate!
Reading all the replies, everyone makes sense. And as rico said we could pick this thread apart as to why we do what we do. I don't think there is a clear cut answer. What we tolerate and what we don't i feel depends on many factors.
I know for myself i have always taken the "back seat" mentality. Now get your minds out of the gutter not that kind of back seat! I guess what i am trying to say is that even though i know i have been wronged i will put my own feelings to the side as i worry too much about everybody else because i know they regret their actions. If i react sometimes i feel like i am "kicking a horse when it's down". Now i by no means are putting a feather in my cap to say this. It is indeed not a healthy approach.
I think one of the things that needs to be figured into this equation is just how forgiving should a person be. I have forgiven many people in my life that i am not so sure i should of. Others i am glad i have because we started a new beginning.
Of course i am not speaking about relationships that are physically abusive. To me that is unforgivable. But in relationships with your mate or a friend where do you draw the line when they have done you dirty? Walking away from someone you care about or love is not easy for any of us. But i am learning that you can only give so much and get nothing in return for so long.
- Right on lips, here's a couple more to throw in there, believeing that our parents, (or our adult care-givers, in some cases when we we're younger) we're looking out for our best interests, and attempting to teach us, (me) right from wrong, why do these issues keep coming up, not believeing our adult close ones, went through these issues.
Answer: Our adult love ones did have their issues. The majority dealt with them as best as they could. My self, I'm from the baby boom generation, and things changed drastically from the pre WWII generation. Of course, things have changed again in the yuppi generation.
Ok, knowing what we have briefly talked about, why would one, set themselves up, in a distructive relationship, or why would one present themselves as someone, only to find out, after they walk down the aisle, thats not the person they believed they we're commiting to?
Answer: As young people, we straight up missed something. Be it intentional, be it unintentional, Be it being lazy, maybe something traumatic occured. So what do we do, we LEARN FROM OUR EXPERIENCES, what passed us by, in our youth, and move forward.
For some this is difficult, others can continue with new energy.
Myself, I was finishing H.S. in the late 70's. You wanna talk about an era of pure re-bellion. It's nothing to be proud of, I along with plenty of stupid peer pressure, put my parents through hell. I missed important events and meaningfull advice. Was involved in more than one regrettable relationship, I feel fortunate to be alive today. Bottom line, I was able to pull out of that detructive lifestyle, with HELP, and everyday I attempt to learn something new, that will apply to me, for a healthy lifestyle. Remembering it doesn't have to be a moutain of learnig, just a little is sufficient, as long as I continue to grow, both emotionally, morally. I'm not into the spiritual thing, but thats me, Physically, I can't grow, topped out along time ago.
Oh Doctor, (doc) I was attempting to help, and spilled my beans. I now believe you owe me. What, I'm not sure, lol
- Doc, you put up a great question.
I think it can also be viewed as "I am such a bad person/loser that I can only hook up with another loser because I am so bad, or don't deserve to be happy"
I view it also like what I found out in addiciton gambling that the addicted gambler does hurt themselves to reinforce the thought they are "No good" and therefore cannot break the cycle of addiction gambling.
It is an intentional act, but they deny it as they place the blame elsewhere.
Or here is another theory.........
- Replied by
- at January 15, 2011, 22:57:05
- last active 2 hrs ago
To deflect their own pain and demons that they struggle with they gravitate to problems of another kind. Keeps their minds off the deepest wounds they have as they concentrate on a new set of problems in their lives.
Love your reply Rico. You were honest, to the point and i would say really have it together on a psychological level!
- When a woman is interested in a guy, and say for instance he is 99% jerk and 1% nice. She will focus on the 1%, and highlight that part. In time she will start noticing the bad traits. Hence comes the much heard statement: What did I ever see in him?
If you spike a woman's emoticons, even in a bad way, she will like that. Men want peace, women want to experience all angles of life, good and bad emotions. Fullness and change, is what they are all about.
Hope this makes sense, english isn't my native language : )
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