UNRESOLVED - Enzo casino over 14k euro confiscation

Hello,

I have a serious issue with Enzo casino. After playing there last month I won an amount of 14.320 euro's. I made a deposit of 200 euro's and made use of their 150% first deposit bonus. They have a promotion that when you deposit with an e-wallet you get an additional 15% on top of the normal 150% first deposit bonus. So my total balance was my 200 deposit and 330 euro's in bonus money.

The terms and conditions of the bonus were quite clear that I could not bet more then 30% of the bonus amount in a single round. I chose to make bets of 25 euro's since the bonus had a wagering requirement of over 20.000 euro's. After completing this wagering requirement I ended up with a great amount of over 14 thousand euro's and felt great. I made a withdrawal of 5000 euro's since that is the maximum amount for the month.

A day later they then send me an e-mail that I had broken the term that you can not bet more then 30% of the bonus in a single round and they will take all of my profit and just put my initial deposit back in to my account. After asking for an explanation, since I did not break that term with my 25 euro bets, they told me that it was the 15% extra with an e-wallet deposit that was the problem. They said that that's a separate bonus and since that bonus was 30 euro's I had broken the terms and conditions they have about bonuses. But I made a single deposit and got a total bonus amount of 330 euro's. It is also not possible to check your wagering and the status of bonuses you have so you are not able to see if they were separate bonuses.

Another thing why I could not have broken the term is that I have not won with that bonus. I was already down way over 30 euro's that is suppose to be the e-wallet deposit bonus before I started winning. When I made that remark to their live chat they said that this casino uses bonus and deposit together. But if that was the case then they should have seen the bonus of my first deposit and the 15% of the e-wallet deposit as one whole bonus so they contradict themselves. Based on what they're saying I did not even come close to betting more then 30% of the bonus. Also in the terms about the 15% bonus it says "an additional bonus amount in addition to the 1st deposit bonus" so saying that with an e-wallet you will get a 15% bigger bonus then when depositing with another method but it is still one bonus.

This is an unfair implementation of the bonus-terms and they use it as an excuse to not pay me. They make it impossible for you to see that it is a separate bonus and their live support has told me that they see bonus+deposit together so when you make a deposit your total balance is being transformed into a bonus balance (based on what their support told me). In my case that would be 530 starting amount of which 330 was added as a bonus making that, and I can't state it enough, 25 euro bets on a 330 euro bonus doesn't even come close to 30% of the bonus amount.

I hope I explained everything clearly and that it shows the way they implement their bonus-rules is unfair and use it as an excuse to withhold funds that players win. Since it is not made clear to the player in any way that the 15% bonus is a separate bonus, they themselves confirm that the deposit and bonus together is seen as a total bonus balance and I had already lost the 15% bonus they have no right to take all my profit based on this.

I would like to ask the LCB rep from Enzocasino to look into this case and help me sort this out because I have not broken any rules and I feel like I am being cheated out of my money.

Kind regards,

Mitch

good luck sir, i never saw any case being solved by this support.

Hi Mitch,

You described your problem well. I'm sorry to hear that. We're going to notify the casino rep for sure. In the meantime please provide me with your casino username. 

Hello Mitch,
We appreciate your choice to play at our casino.

We always hope that our clients have an exciting and satisfying time with us. We acknowledge the efforts you have made in bringing your issues with us to this forum and we hope for a positive outcome.

We apriciate your feedback and have forwarded to the Internal Review Group for investegation in order to resolve this issue.

They will be in touch with you shortly. In the meanwhile we thank you for your patience.

Sincerely Yours,
Enzo Casino Management

I can't see any issues with the maximum bet. If you got 330 e bonus, and the maximum bet is 30% of the bonus amount, your maximum bet equals 99 e. You bet maximum 25 e so how can you break the rules then?

In their bonus t&c there is a 15% special bonus on payment method, but I can't see futher bonus description.

@ EnzoCasino Which exact rule has he broken considering that that the casino doesn't have any explained in their t&c?

You are right Gospodja Ministarka.

We were also trying to find a further explanation on the bets and the special bonus. Still waiting for the casino rep to provide his explanation. 

Dear Mitch,

We had a delay in replying to you because of the reconstruction of some of our offices. The people who usually investigate complaints from clients were unable to access their files.

There may be some information still missing, but in order not to delay any longer, will make a basic reply here. We don’t have any intention for our Bonus T&Cs to be misleading. Mostly we try to keep them brief and as free from excessive verbal clutter as we can. As you certainly know, bonuses tend to distort the probabilities for a casino, which is why all casinos have special conditions under which the bonus is granted. It seems to us that the tendency today is to create very complicated procedures including dividing the players balance in to separate elements and sometimes imposing severe max bet limits (like 5 euro per spin) on the bonus part of the balance is in play. The difficulty with complex systems is that they trip clients up, if for instance you have to switch your betting strategy because you have crossed some line in your balance. Complexity breeds confusion, and we pride ourselves for having simple and fairly generous bonus rules for our clients. Incidentally, players who like bonuses are the mainstay of our clientele, so we do try to be nice to them.

We have several principles that we work with. First that all players have a max bet limit of 29% of the deposit in play. This is not stated in the bonus T&Cs, but is it is the general T&Cs (16.3). The Bonus T&Cs to state very clearly that general T&Cs apply. We think that all players, not just bonus players, should play with some limit. In light of that, any bonus equal or greater than the deposit (which we are known to give out liberally) is simply irrelevant for determining a max be limit.

A second principle is that we treat a deposit+bonus balance as single unit of value. The wager requirement applies to all of it without distinction. This means that a player who makes a 100 euro deposit and gets a 150 euro bonus will be able to place nice hefty bets as high as 29 euro and each and every spin he makes clear part of the wager. He could complete the wager in as little as 285 spins, if that his betting strategy.

A third principle is when the bonus is smaller than the deposit, that the bet limit is based on the bonus. You might be inclined to ask why make a fuss over a small 15% bonus. The reasoning is that it balances things out, because players will alternate between betting high and short and betting low and long. Also, we give out free non-deposit bonuses regularly, and these must have bet limits attached. So we like to apply the same rules to every bonus. Why should a 15% APM bonus get a free pass, while a 15 euro free bonus has a bet limit? So the rule is that all bonuses have bet limits, although once again, in the case of deposit bonuses that are equal to or greater than the deposit, this is not practically applicable.

When we tried to create easy to read T&Cs, it may have been that things that were obvious to us might not be obvious to others. Nevertheless, our understanding of the T&Cs and how they are presented is like this. First we assume that the client is going to check out the promotions page. There the client will find three kinds of bonuses. Each presented with equal prominence. The first is the quite generous deposit 150% bonus. The second is the very modest 15% APM bonus. The last if for the free casino bonus, which has no specific size, since it is given by customer service on an individual basis.

The point of presenting the bonuses this way is so that the client understands that percentages aside, the bonuses are all the same. Second, the client is given a nice large visible link to the T&Cs both for the specific bonuses and for the General Bonus T&Cs . The first line of that text reads: “applicable to all bonuses.” A player receiving a single APM bonus would have no difficulty understanding that he needs to keep to the bet limit that bonus. Now when a player receives two bonuses at the same time, what should he think? He could assume that all the bonuses blend in to a single bonus and in effect he is not bound by any bet limit for smaller bonus. But there is nothing in the T&Cs to suggest that. He could also conclude that the bonuses are distinct and he should stick to less than 30% of the small one. Most likely he would conclude that he doesn’t know. What then is he to do? At that point he can ask. As you know, we have live chat operators whose job it is to answer player’s questions 24/7.

There is one last point that we must make. Even in you had not been cut for over betting, you would not have been eligible to win any more than x10 your deposit, since you did not deposit over 200 euro. This new player win limit is explicitly stated in the General T&Cs, (13.6) to which you agreed by signing up. If you consider this matter you will see that this opens a way for us to come to an agreement that we will both find satisfying. With your kind permission, we will write you personally to continue this discussion.

Sincerely,
Internal Review Group
Enzo Casino

i wonder why everything that is relevant is on the general rules and not on the bonus rule huh?

You are really unbelievable.Your casino has changed t&c, point number 16.3. and then you refer to the same point that your casino just changed.

It was written that the max bet is 30% of the bonus amount and now it's stands 30% of the deposit amount.

Casino's bonus t&c are unclear, missing the basic information that player's need to know.

I think you just try to find the way not to pay this player.

blacklist ? 1 vote

It is important to note that unlike an opinion voiced by one of the forum participants, the rule forbidding bets 30% or greater than the deposit in play has always been a part of the General Terms and Conditions.

" 16.3-3 We reserve the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings and bonuses for irregular play.
'Irregular play' includes, inter alia: Placing total bets equal to or greater than 30% of the value of the deposit currently in play."

Furthermore, Mitch. you did not over-bet relative to your deposit, but relative to your 15% bonus.
This bonus is clearly presented as an independent bonus that may or may not be received along with a deposit bonus.
The bonus terms and conditions apply to every bonus individually. The Bonus T&Cs made no stipulation that diverse bonuses become unified.
You should have kept your betting down to the permissible amount. One can argue about of the T&Cs, but not out them being binding.
These are the stipulations according to which we offer the service that we do. Every client who opens an account accepts them as binding.
If nor for them we would be unable to offer the experience that we do.

We thank you for understanding and wish you all the success and good luck in the world.
Sincerely,
Internal Review Group
Enzo Casino

An opinion by one forum member who can speak volums especially if a rule was changed after someone wins. I hope that is not the case because if it is, all the forum members need to read this thread and not play at your casino. Just my opinion though which does not mean much to you. 

Hello,

I must say that some of the claims you make are not right. First of all you say that the terms are not confusing but they are. The terms and condition you had at the time I played have all of a sudden changed quite a bit and you are quoting the terms that were not even in effect when I played.

For the 15% bonus, and I'll copy paste it from the terms you had on the day I played, it said:

"For selected payment methods, if your first Deposit is done by the selected payment method, you will receive an additional 15% Bonus amount on your Deposit up to € 1,000 (in addition to the 1st Deposit Bonus)"

Now how is an additional bonus amount in addition the the 1st deposit bonus a separate bonus? It just says that if you make a deposit with a certain payment method your first deposit bonus will be 15% higher but it would still be the same bonus.

Also I never mentioned one time that your terms or bonus system was complex. I said that with the terms you had it was quite clear that you could only bet 30% of the bonus amount received and that I had followed those rules. And just to be clear it did say that in the general bonus terms as well as the general terms. (12.1 of the general bonus terms). But the complaint was about the way you have the 15% deposit bonus explained in the terms and conditions saying that it is an addition bonus amount but then when it comes in handy for you all of a sudden it is a separate bonus. That doesn't mean it should be given a free pass but you can not treat it as a separate bonus from the way you have it described in your terms and conditions 

I see a lot of people agreeing with me here (thanks for that) that you are in the wrong in this matter and would like to discuss the issue personally hoping we can come to an agreement.

Thank you,

Mitch

They tell you

If you consider this matter you will see that this opens a way for us to come to an agreement that we will both find satisfying. With your kind permission, we will write you personally to continue this discussion.

So contact them and come to an agreement ... They arent telling you they wont pay right?!

Good luck !

the best agreement they will find is pay 10% of it and forget it

They changed their t&c after this complaint. It was written that the max bet is 30% of the bonus amount and now it's stands 30% of the deposit amount.

As far as I can see,this isn't their first complaint regarding the same thing.

They should have a warning sign if you ask me.

We've notified them to reply to your questions, but it seems they don't have anything to add. Hope they'll respond. 

Dear Cat50,

The last times the Terms and Conditions were changed was back in November, and those changes had nothing to do with the max bet rules. There are actually two rules. One obligates any player, even one who does not take a bonus, to bet less than 30% of the deposit currently in play. This rule is meant to insure than there is always some kind of proportionality between the amount a player starts with and the amount he wins.

There is a similar rule under the Bonus Terms and Condition stating that you can’t bet 30% or more of a bonus that has been received. This is true for each kind of bonus we offer, although for the big bonuses it really doesn’t matter. You can start with a deposit of 100 euro, get a 200 euro bonus and since your max bet is based on the deposit, you can place bets of 29.99 euro if you like, which would finish your wager requirement (X33) in just 342 spins. So there are times when you can play tall and short, but in exchange we want there to be times when you play short and long. So if you deposit 100 and take a small bonus, let’s say a 15% APM bonus, (=15 euro) your max bet will be 4.99. The wager for that bonus is X25. So if you are betting your max allowable bet you will finish that wager in 577 spins.

It is all a matter of the internal balances that make operating a casino possible. Our goal is to make as many players happy as we can, bonus and non-bonus. So we ask non-bonus players to do their bit in and keep their bets down to a reasonable sum. We ask recipient of small bonuses to play short and long (though 577 spins in not so long if you think of it. A well-paced player can get through that in less than an hour.) As a result, players who take big bonuses can play with much bigger bets and complete their wager requirements without delay. Remember that 100% bonuses per deposit for a regular depositor is not uncommon with us. Also, the fact that your balance (bonus+deposit) is always seen as a single unit of value means that you are always paying off your wager requirement, even if you never “dipped” into your bonus money!

Compare us to some of the newer casinos out there. Sure if you play your own money and get super lucky, you can kill the bank. But if you like bonuses you will find yourself stuck with complicated and draconian Terms and Conditions, like 5 euro bet limits. Imagine having a 300 euro starting balance and having to keep your betting under 5 euro! Or imagine that your balance is divided into two parts, your real money and your bonus money. You play your bonus money first. So you don’t have any max bet limit, right? Well guess what, you are not paying off your wager requirement either! Then when you finish with your “real money” and you hit your bonus money…suddenly you have to switch to 5 euro bets! Oh yes, did anyone remind you?

Here is the message I am trying to convey. Our T&Cs are rather old fashioned, but if you know how to abide by them you will find that they are much to your advantage. Above all they allow us the privilege and pleasure of giving the kind of gaming experience you deserve, with lots of bonuses and lots of freedom in how to work you gaming style.

Thanks for the opportunity to share this information with you.

Sincerely Yours,
Enzo Casino Management

This is a lie.

EnzoCasino, Are you planning on paying this legit winner? Why are you being dodgy? This max bet rule sucks either way. If you were a real legit casino. This rule wouldn't be there in the first place. If you can't afford big hits then you need to get out of the casino business. The max bet rule is just plain rogue. PAY THIS PLAYER!!! 

I contacted the rep on the 15th as he suggested that we would discuss this furthur privately. But I see that after my PM he has posted a response on this thread but has not replied to my message. So you (Enzo rep) suggest we discuss matters privately and then when I message you you do not respond.

Could you please send me a PM or explain here why you have not replied.

They have been notified. 

bonus rules are terrible! I am sure that casino just don't want to pay big winnings like this.! And this player didn't break the terrible rules!!! 

Almost a month later and still not a word from Enzo casino. Even though they proposed to come to an agreement they have not followed up to their own proposition.

They said:

"If you consider this matter you will see that this opens a way for us to come to an agreement that we will both find satisfying. With your kind permission, we will write you personally to continue this discussion."

I must say I am really disappointed in the way the casino is handling this. It is a huge amount of money they confiscated and they have not shown any initiative besides some posts on this thread to come to an agreement. Once again I am asking the rep of Enzocasino to reply to my PM or e-mail me.

Hi Slotkampioen777,

Yes, they did promise they'd address you directly. We've also told them several times to contact you but they certainly didn't do that. They do not want to change their opinion and they state you've broken their rules and didn't read their t&c carefully. We'll give them some more time to prove that. Have you tried to contact them since then? 

Yes no surprise they don't change their opinion because it would cost them 14k. In my opinion it's clear that I did not break the terms and they just change the interpretation so that I would have broken the 30% rule because of the extra 15%. I think I have shown enough to show with the way it is stated in the terms and the fact their support told me they see the balance with bonus as a whole I did not break anything.

I contacted the rep here since he is the one that made the proposition and has contact with the relevant department at the casino but like I said he has never replied to my PM.

Dear Slotkampioen,

I see you have re-posted the following quote taken from my post to you of 9 February: "If you consider this matter you will see that this opens a way for us to come to an agreement that we will both find satisfying. With your kind permission, we will write you personally to continue this discussion."

Several hours after that was posted to the forum a letter was sent to the e-mail you have on file with us. While not much different than the post of that date, it did end with the following paragraph: "Please understand that we are very interested in anything you have to say and we will do our best to present your point of view to the casino management. We always hope for a speedy resolution to this disagreement." One could not have a more open invitation to begin a dialogue than this.

We received no response from you. It seemed quite clear at the time that you were more interested in presenting your case to the public in this forum. All the while, we carried on a lively conversation with you and the forum moderators. As long as we are discussing the conversation, I would like to go back to your post of 12 Feb, where you quoted the promotion page "For selected payment methods, if your first Deposit is done by the selected payment method, you will receive an additional 15% Bonus amount on your Deposit up to € 1,000 (in addition to the 1st Deposit Bonus)" You made the claim that this extra 15% is not presented as an independent entity, which might be subject independently to bonus T&Cs. I think than an objective reading of the above text gives quite the opposite meaning. The 15 % bonus is not presented as an aspect of the larger deposit bonus. Rather it is given "on your Deposit...in addition to the first deposit bonus." It also has a completely different wager requirement than the first deposit bonus. Obviously the Preferred Payment Method Bonus is not an extension of the deposit bonus, but a separate gift which can be claimed completely independently of the deposit bonus.

Lastly, I must protest the accusation made that we changed our terms and conditions after you were cut. This is completely false.

With all this, if you want to communicate to us directly, that option is always open to you. Just write support@enzocasino.com. Be sure to use the e-mail on file with us and specify in the subject bar "About My Complaint" You will be replied to as soon as is possible.

Sincerely Yours,

Enzo Casino Management

An update:

We are marking these two Enzo complaints as UNRESOLVED. We are not closing them yet but we were told by Casino Rep they consider their ruling final and they won't be chaning their decision, thus will not pay the winnings.

In our opionion the main issues here are:

1. Contradicting T&Cs ( open to different interpertation )
2. Predatory T&Cs
3. Unclear bonus terms ( open to different interpertation )

For the transaprecny sake, I will later on post what we told them in our correspondence and why we think this is wrong decision and why we cannot recommend their casino . I will allow some additional time in case they reconsider their position and do the right thing.

I have closely followed this topic and also read all replies etc ...

When I read the last reply from ENZO casino ... and also on the first page (where I even commented/replied) ... I still think that ENZO does want to resolve this ... They wont pay the full amount I think ... But if you can come to another agreement with them its good or not? 

Or am I missing a keypoint in this discussion that really makes ENZO not trustworthy?

their last response to us was that they will not pay the player based on their interpretation of the rules. We pointed out why their rules are not clear, predatory and ambiguous, but they wouldn't listen.

So that makes them untrustworthy in my book.

Ok ...

Well I have always the most trust in LCB than in everyone else ... so in this case I have more than 100% faith in what you say

"Allow me to proctologize myself.  Suppositorally speaking....."

Ok so the update is due. Its been over 20 days and not a peep from the casino ( after our last email to them ). They did state their decision is final and that it won't be changed, but we hoped they will come to their senses and do the right thing.

These are the issues we have with them:

1. Predatory, unclear and ambiguous T&C's

2. Connection to the Game Tech Group N.V ( they are claiming to be using their license and software solution, but if you remember this is the group that powered rogue Affpower casinos ). We gave them the benefit of the doubt as we originally suspected they are just another Affpower re-brand, which they claimed not to be ( and granted EnzoCasino did not feature any pirated games ). But still this connection raises some serious questions about their business and as much as we cant be certain they are part of the Affpower , we also cant be certain they are not.

3. They changed their story couple of times and were interpreting their rules differently , and at one point they were to pay the player the winnings that were capped by the bonus max cash out rule. But now they dont want to pay anything claiming the max bet rule was broken.

Our arguments:

* Their T&C's are open to different interpertaion and even if our own interpetaiton is wrong, we really cannot be blamed for it. Which is also part of our point.

Just to make it clear. We have no issue with max bet rule. This is standard rule in order to protect casino against fraud and abuse. This part is 100% legitimate.

* The issue is with what we see as conflicting general T&C's and bonus T&Cs. Their claim is that the extra 15% bonus ( using the preferred deposit method ) that player got is a separate bonus and hence the max bet rule is to be applied on both this bonus and the welcome bonus.

We see a big problem with this reasoning and here is why:

*These bonuses act as one joint bonus. Upon depositing with the preferred banking method the player got both bonuses which were joint together under one balance ( and you are not able to tell which bonus is which ). So using their logic that there are two separate bonuses our question is this: how do you know which one was being used when the max bet rule was allegedly breached?
We may as well argue that when ever the player was betting high he was using the bigger bonus to play with and do the wagering. Hence never breaking the max bet rule. 

*Also another argument was in reference to which of their terms and conditions would be applied in this case:

General T&C say this : Placing total bets equal to or greater than 30% of the value of the deposit currently in play.

Bonus T$C: Placing single bets equal to or greater than 30% from the value of the Bonus credited to the player account, prior to the wager requirement for that Bonus having been met.

So if you apply the general terms then in that case the max bet rule was NEVER broken and the player should be paid.

* They  also have the rule about the Martingale, double up system and other " irregular systems" alike. This is nothing but a predatory term, as it is known fact that Martingale system does not favor the player. Actually no betting systems can beat the house edge. Reference : https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/betting-systems/

Conclusion:

It is our stand that Enzo Casino is not acting in good faith and not being fair. Their terms are predatory and unclear and maybe even designed in such way to confuse the players and make it harder to cash-out.

At this point we cannot recommend this casino and we urge LCB'ers to play elsewhere.

Big thanks to LCB for all the effort taken and also for explaining really clear what happend and also the whole story!!!

Thanks for beeing so Awesome team LCB

An update:

We have issued a warning report : https://lcb.org/news/label-me-confused-how-enzo-casino-denied-winnings-quoting-ambiguous-terms

you do something right in a while zuga, thank you

Hello,

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So are you saying that other times i dont? 

Here is the guy offering you 2000€, did they pay that out atleast?

No they did not pay anything as far as we are aware of.

I have seen quite many casinos with that 10x rule and have learned the hardway myself aswell. I haven't read this topic 100%, but as it seems to me they owe him 2000€.The max bet rule was not broken, but considering my quote above they must pay him the 2k.

Hi,

This is my last post in this thread to clear things up. In the meanwhile I've been in contact with Enzocasino and I have to say that they were very helpful and cooperating in this manner. We have reached an agreement in this manner that is more then fair for me and I am very glad that this is finally sorted out. 

Thank to everybody who took the time to read this thread and of course to Enzocasino for being cooperative and coming to a fair agreement with me. The complaint for me is now over and this thread can be labeled as resolved.

Whoa!  

Wait....

Whaaaaat?

Could you be more specific?  I think the details of how this was resolved should be addressed, not only for other players but as a credit to Enzo Casino for resolving this complaint.

hmmm something's fishy here.  Sounds to me like they forcing the OP to post how "fair and just" they are , if hes to get paid.

And it took them ONLY 3 months..... rogue!

First of all, if you are getting paid then I am really happy for you. It would mean all this and the battle we went to , was worth it.

Now for the sake of transparency here's couple of points:

1. Since obviously some sort of an arrangement was made between the complainant and this casino We would all like to know the details of this arranagement. But I fully understand if they told you not to comment any further ( not that it makes it rigth and hopefully they are not conditioning you to say anything ).

2. Either way this really changes nothing about Enzo Casino and their status here at LCB. The warning remains as no complaint should last for over 3 months and no casino should have predatory and ambiguous T&Cs.

Thanks for sharing it with us Slotkampioen777. We are happy you have finally received your winnings. That's good news. However, taking into consideration all the effort we had to make, the time spent on resolving this issue, we can't mark this case as resolved. You had to wait for months to get your money and after days of fighting and frustration, they decided to make an agreement with you. From our point of you, this is not a good business practice and they still deserve to be on our warning list.